VEF and AI tampered content

[currentpeak]

Originally Posted by Gruenspecht

I plea for a 100% ban for artificial intelligence in the classic model section because where do you draw the line? When a moderator thinks:"Ow this looks pretty good, nice work artificial intelligence" or "I will remove this post but i give the forum member a few tips to perfect his artificial intelligence skill".

It seems many people, more now than ever before, want perfection in imagery. Imperfections or low fidelity are being frowned upon while to me it gives it's character, it's rawness, it's pureness.

I agree. Classic Models and Classic Movies sections should be AI free. Unfortunately, the Classic forums are already being flooded by tasteless AI posts. There are other modern forums that cater for that. It is total opposite of the Vintage Erotica meaning to me. Unfortunately, one can't teach good taste. And I mean in objective way, because most of those AI posts would have never been posted on here.

[BondJmsBond]

How about a separate forum for AI content?

That way those who do not like it will be able to avoid it, and proponents will be able to have it.

[currentpeak]

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

How about a separate forum for AI content?

That way those who do not like it will be able to avoid it, and proponents will be able to have it.

That would also show, if there is any interest in it and how big. Especially when it comes to Classic era content being tampered with AI. I've got my own prediction, haha.

It would also mean, the mods have a lot of job to do, to weed out/move AI posts from the Classic Models and Classic Movies sections to AI section [many of likeminded users would gladly help with pointing out AI posts that need to be moved I think]. Basically creating mirror model/movie threads in AI section.

And that would also spread AI awareness among users on the forum, and make AI posters think twice before they post their creations. Because it is way easier to get download numbers when you "force" your AI'd post in the Classic sections (main focal point of Vintage Erotica Forum), than in proper separate AI section.

All in all, I think this would help to preserve Vintage Erotica Forum as it was intended. To admire vintage erotica, not AI erotica.

[Scott T]

It seems that I am rare for VEF but I look at all new post threads twice a day.

So the number of AI related posts per day currently amounts to between 3 and 5 pages of threads. It has reduced to this level since the recovery from the major server malfunction.

So there are a lot of specifically AI threads on VEF.

In terms of mods weeding out/moving AI content, there are existing reporting threads in each section of VEF so I suspect that the additional mod work would likely not be that much - because the main AI posters would move to the AI section and all that would left would be the less prolific posters who, presumably, would be producing less professional AI product.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

How about a separate forum for AI content?

That way those who do not like it will be able to avoid it, and proponents will be able to have it.

Wishes come true . . .

We have an entire section for it already.

http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/f10...i-erotica.html

Lots of posts -- people doing things that range from new users to very sophisticated.

It also has a lot of history to it -- if you look at the oldest thread (which I started back in Jan 2023, when all this was so new !), you can watch the evolution of the technology, and of skills from crude to better.

I would also observe that folks who don't actually use these tools have a lot of misapprehensions about them. There's a certain kind of AI tool that most will be familiar with, a Dalle type text prompt.

. . . but there are all sorts of other AI powered tools that are now everywhere.

So, for example, an image that's acquired and processed today in a professional workflow -- that's usually got various AI tools in it. Same with almost any raytrace engine. Its true of many photographs taken with modern digital cameras, and is most dramatic with iPhone and Android "computational photography". That is, when you press the shutter button on a Samsung or Apple phone -- that's not "taking a picture" in the sense that opening a shutter and exposed a bit of film does.

What's happening is that the phone starts acquiring information from the sensor, and then depending on settings it will figure out "how to make a nice picture" from that sensor data . . . notice that you almost never see a shot of people with eyes closed because they blinked at the wrong moment with an iPhone . . . there's a lot of AI behind that. Similarly there's all kind of AI behind these cameras understanding of color balance, high dynamic range imaging and more.

So unless you're looking at a piece of film and printing it with an enlarger -- if its gotten scanned . . . there's surely at least some AI in it, and often quite a lot.

Take film and document scanners -- things like Epson, Digital Ice and Silverfast. All of them have extensive AI routines for things like dust and scratch removal, fixing moire patterns and so on. So that scan you made of a vintage magazine -- that's got AI tools at work in it, if its a modern scanner like the Epson V6000 series

Fixing the shadows in the gutters (eg the split between pages) -- that's an AI tool. Logo and watermark removal? That's an AI tool (content aware fill in the case of Photoshop). All kinds of color corrections are built with AI tools . . .

. . . and on and on.

So while I love old analog media -- back in the day, I worked in a color darkroom, spent a lot of time on Cibachrome processing, which was remarkably beautiful -- we're in 2024, and pretty much anything you see posted is going to be affected by AI somehow.

In the case of VEF, the important this is to be clear about where stuff comes from, and label it appropriately.

With that done, we've got piles of old films with relatively poor quality which can be improved very substantially . . . this has previously been the province of professional film restoration, but the tools are now accessible to a skilled amateur. Not every enhancement is successful, but one of the things I've notice is the improvement in some of the worst example recently. So the tiny little highly compressed films of the early internet era, things that were 240 x 320 highly pixellated pixels -- now can look surprisingly good with tools like Topaz (which previously was pretty poor at that).

So

-- we have a whole section for this topic
and
-- even if its not in this section, if its a pixel that's been acquired in 2024, AI/Machine Learning will very likely be involved somehow, even if you're not aware of it.

[BondJmsBond]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Wishes come true . . .

We have an entire section for it already.

http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/f10...i-erotica.html

....

I think you know that's not what I meant.

But just in case you don't, let me state it more clearly; and actually make it a simple thing to accomplish and maintain, which would also probably satisfy both those opposed to AI and those for AI.

Just create a sub-forum of, say, the Classic Movies Forum and call it AI Classic Movies Forum. Place the AI Classic movies there.

IF that works out, then expand it to any other affected sections where AI controversy exists - Classic Pornstars, Magazine Scans, and so on.

The poor quality of a lot of older stuff could be improved as you say, and these sub-forums would probably end up being much appreciated also.

I don't believe letting them mix in the same threads is a very good idea; having to dig through them for AI or non-AI stuff whichever you prefer would be annoying and offensive for those who wish non AI analog content, and those who want AI.
This will become worse as AI proliferates and buries/replaces original files and you'll end up with AI only content as the original stuff disappears.
You appear to be saying it's 2024, AI is here, so just eat it. I think the effort to preserve original content is worth it - it wouldn't really be a whole lot of effort imo, and would preserve VEF as different from other sites in it's regard for old school.

but what do I know I'm just a guy looking at pr0n

The easiest thing to do is just post a rule, maybe there's already one, that people have to identify AI files, and then just let the chips fall where they may, whatever, so that's what will probably happen.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

The easiest thing to do is just post a rule, maybe there's already one, that people have to identify AI files, and then just let the chips fall where they may, whatever, so that's what will probably happen.

There's no way to do this. As I said -- any tool that you use in 2024 to manipulate images and especially video -- has AI in it in some way.


People can identify certain sorts of things as "AI" -- but they miss all sorts of other things. It is some of the amusing lacunae of AI research that one common target is "build an AI that can detect AI" . . . these will only ever work for _some_ examples, but of course what everyone is trying to do is to generate stuff that is indistinguishable from "real" . . . and with enough skill and patience, you can pretty much always achieve that. Its really all a matter of how much skill, effort, resources.

If you're watching or listening to Peter Jackson's "Get Back" -- that's "AI" enhanced in all sorts of ways, both audio and video. It neither looks nor sounds anything like the raw film and tape recordings from 1969; does it look "like AI" to you? There are some things I see -- mostly that the colors are vibrant in a way that wouldn't have been possible at the time, with the studio they had (eg could have done it with Technciolor, but that's a much, much more involved studio than where they were).

If you watch any remastered film -- there are AI routines involved in most aspects of that. If you've color balanced a film, that's got AI routines. If you've resized it or color balanced it, if you've cleaned up smear from NTSC mistiming, scratches, jitter . . . that's got AI routines. If you've retimed a sequence to stretch it an extra beat . . that's an AI tool.

Any picture you take with an Apple, Samung, Huawei or Google phone . . . that's "AI enhanced"

So you'll have to find some way to describe what it is that you mean by "AI" -- unless you go entirely analog, even something as simple as a white balance has machine learning in it. Compression algorithms now have AI routines built in, intelligently evaluating scenes and deciding on parameters . . .

If you look at the remastered versions of classic films -- True Lies, Alien, take your pick . . . all of them are "AI enhanced" in all sorts of ways. Some you may like, some you may not . . .

There was an article in the New York Times just last week:

"A.I. Made These Movies Sharper. Critics Say It Ruined Them."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/13/movies/ai-blu-ray-true-lies.html

. . . discussing some of the issues (the Times was mostly concentrating on some issues with upscaling -- lots of streaming services want to offer 4K type video, and so much of it is upscaled, sometimes not all that well).

Here's a promise you can take to the bank -- this technology is advancing incredibly quickly, and whatever you saw six months ago may look obsolete today.

So there's no putting this genie back in the bottle . . .

[BondJmsBond]

So you are saying it's here so eat it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Why bother to even require people to label old movies that have been run through a modern AI program to change it and turn it into something that bears little resemblance to the look of the original file. It's here so eat it.

Appreciate the input.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

So you are saying it's here so eat it. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm trying to inform. People who are unfamiliar with the technology are opining about "AI looks like X" . . . and they're not getting how this all works, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

Why bother to even require people to label old movies that have been run through a modern AI program to change it and turn it into something that bears little resemblance to the look of the original file. It's here so eat it.

. . . all sorts of material has already been processed and reprocessed in just that way . . . sometimes you might have noticed and objected, other times you wouldn't have. Even something as unremarkable as how your file was compressed -- that will have machine learning in it, with modern compression algorithms. None of us here are posting raw files, neither video nor images; so they're all being treated in some way-- and with video compression in particular, AI is already a big part of it, and will only get bigger.

Originally Posted by BondJmsBond

Appreciate the input.

Just trying to offer a somewhat informed perspective on what this technology is and where its going.

Lots of people seem to want to talk about it -- without ever having used the tools or tried to engage what's going on from a signal processing science perspective.

So its like a conversation about, say, Radar, without understanding anything about electronics.

A conversation about image enhancement without engaging what machine learning tools do-- offers more heat than light.

[BondJmsBond]

Thanks for the condescension, but you're missing my point entirely.

Modern AI video software, I briefly looked at some, are entirely different than jenny or I running a denoising filter on a vhs rip in Handbrake 10 years ago.
You say it's the same thing. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.
The original files, even the best ones, will be supplanted by sharper-looking AI products, and lost entirely.
..and who is to say the now greatly more artificial product is superior to the original, with all it's blemishes?
Some care about that. It's a human thing.

Finally,
What if the AI decides we shouldn't watch classic porn anymore?